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DaveWMjrgill:  what's wrong with actually using aero ?
DaveWMnice
DaveWMi never worked with audio or video in anything programming related tbh
Qb_Masterzbattle.net was cool, it's a simple program that organizes connections so people can play super nintendo games together using zsnes
jrgillDaveWM: i dont care for the transparency.  its not a matter of performance but just that i like my programs maximized and the clear bars bother me
DaveWMcool
DaveWMjrgill:  you know you can disable transparency
jrgillyeah, thats what ive been playing with.  idk
Ether_ManQb_Master, they also have legal problems with trademark infringment..  They should really have chosen another name
DaveWMjrgill:  classic is more or less having themes disabled,  so if you're expecting anything pretty out of it,  you'll be disappointed
jrgillDaveWM: that's what i like but with aero peek, etc
Qb_Masterlol
DaveWMjrgill:  you can have your cake,  and i'll eat it too
jrgill-.-
DaveWMjrgill:  just go to advanced system setting and appearance,  with aero turned on,  uncheck anything in the boxes there you're not interested in
jrgillyeah, i think the shadows bother me.  lets see here
DaveWMi used to like things really plain too,  especially when i was working on an old crappy ass computer,  but now all my stuff supports win7 just fine,  and the glassy sexy visuals  have grown on me
DaveWMi even made a little transparency addon for mirc,  got this thing that makes cmd transparent,  and used glasser with firefox
DaveWMnever thought i'd like the eye candy,  but when the system handles it fine,  it makes the whole experience more pleasant,  if you're gonna be sitting there staring at it all for hours
Qb_Masterhah cool :)
jrgillyeah, im not one of those stuck up i gotta run everything minimal guys.  i was doing some nlite installs like tinyxp and all that but that was back when it made a difference
jrgillwell aero offers desktop composition and takes the load of the cpu w/ gpu so im cool with that
DaveWMjrgill:  you'll probably find like myself,  that win7 is made very well in the sense that most default things dont use that much of the resources
DaveWMso it doesnt tweak as well as XP
jrgillya
DaveWMi used to tweak the crap out of XP,  i just have a small list of things i do with win7
jrgillyeah, i used to go nuts w/ changing stuff on xp :P  i have xp sp3 on my netbook here.  brings back memories
jrgillbut i think im over the whole tweaking the hell out of it stage
jrgilli set things up nice and then i get sick of it, so im trying to set something up long term here
DaveWMyeah,  well you could double or tripple your available resources by tweaking xp,  on win7 you can tweak it to hell and back and maybe get a 10% difference,  and have less to show for it
DaveWMi just disable paging,  security center,  indexing,  hibernation,  and a few other services,  remote stuff,  backup
jrgillyeah, disabling aero is like 100MB ram saved... wow
DaveWMany automatic maintenance i can disable i do,  i like to be proactive about that sort of thing
jrgillindexing can be a bitch, yeah
Ether_ManDaveWM, you do realize that disabling paging is actually a bad thing I hope?
DaveWMi don't know too many people that search the contents of their drive for a file
DaveWMmost people know about where stuff is at
DaveWMEther_Man:  i don't see why if i have enough physical memory
Ether_ManYou have more ram than you have drivespace? Wow...  Cant imagine what that must have cost..  What kindof mainboard do you have to handle that?
DaveWMEther_Man:  where did i say that ?
FishFaceI disable it on my PC's I touch fwiw
DaveWMand who uses 1tb of memory ?
Ether_ManYou just said you have enough physical...  The only point at which disabling paging by having enough physical memory is by having more memory than storage..
DaveWMEther_Man:  that's out of your mouth
DaveWMi sure hate that i've been using so many broken pc's for years then...
DaveWMwithout any issues
Ether_ManI didnt say it was broken... I said it was a bad thing...  Best case scenario is lower performance...  Worst case is dataloss because of it
DaveWMEther_Man:  how would it cause worse performance,  if its using physical ram,   over a portion of your hard disk as memory ?
Action: jrgill leaves the scene
DaveWMmy desktop has ddr3 1600 currently,  i don't think my OCZ Vertex SSD can even compete with that
Ether_ManBecause it doesnt stop paging...  But you will start paging all over the drive instead which increases load times due to it having to move the drive header longer
Ether_ManAlso, by disabling paging, you effectively make superfetch useless, which again, lowers performance
DaveWMsuperfetch still seems to work the same in every scenario i've tested it
DaveWMalthough that's disabled on my desktop as well
Ether_ManYou cant use superfetch if you disable the pagefile because you wont have any ram free to superfetch in
g0phersince NT4 - MS has recommended pagefile be 1.5X size of ram.
Ether_ManDaveWM, http://lifehacker.com/5426041/understanding-the-windows-pagefile-and-why-you-shouldnt-disable-it
heftigdisabling superfetch is bad
g0phereven though 2GB out of 4GB ram free - the pagefile is using 140MB
Ether_ManThat's bad too aye but atleast better than disabling the pagefile...  Atleast disabling superfetch wont make you lose data
DaveWMgood read Ether_Man ,  i suppose i've been going more by feel for my personal needs,  and i have yet to have any issues or notice any performance loss on the systems that i've disabled paging on
Ether_ManIf you ALWAYS disable it, you dont really have much of a referencepoint now do you? :)
DaveWMmind you,  the two systems i have it disabled on atm both have solid state drives,  and plenty of ram,  so i've disabled it,  along with superfetch,  and indexing
motawhy?
DaveWMi didnt say i ALWAYS disable it
motawhat do you hope to *gain* from disabling it?
DaveWMmota:  well on those systems,  i just wanted to reduce the IO to the disks
motaah, your feeling was, SSDS wear out, so move pagefile elsewhere?
Ether_ManDaveWM, might I suggest actually just turning down your "swappiness"?
DaveWMi find off my ocz vertex,  applications start just as snappy without superfetch as they do on systems with an hdd and superfetch
mota(or remove it)
Meccaliciouscan i get an help
DaveWMEther_Man:  lol
Meccaliciousi have a site which failed while i'm trying connecting to
Meccaliciouscan you tell me if it works to you
motaMicrosoft feel actually that pagefile is one of the *best* things to have on an SSD
DaveWMEther_Man:  you've made some valid points Ether_Man, i'll keep them in mind from now on
DaveWMmota:  i can see the benefit,  but i was working off the initial paranoia that people had about writing to an ssd too much
DaveWMalthough i'm slowly growing away from that
motaFor the last word on pagefiles (short of buying a $50 copy of Windows Internals), this is a fascinating read: http://blogs.technet.com/b/markrussinovich/archive/2008/11/17/3155406.aspx
DaveWMmota:  also,  like for instance,  i have 8gb of ram on my newer desktop,  so the pagefile managed by windows tends to be huge
DaveWMand my ssd is only 60gb
DaveWMso disabling paging on it and hibernation,  clears up a huge chunk of space for me
motaVista forward, the aut-managed pagefile minimum is RAM + 300GB or 1GB, whichever is larger
motaMS's POV on pagefile and SSD: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/e7/archive/2009/05/05/support-and-q-a-for-solid-state-drives-and.aspx
DaveWMwell,  as i said,  i can understand the benefit there,  if i was paging,  it does seem like a better option to page off of a faster device
motahibernation and pagefile - I'm actually starting to wonder why MS don't combine these
DaveWMespecially with the initialization being like nothing on an ssd
DaveWMi dunno
Ether_Manhmm..  Cant find it now but there is actually a regkey that tells windows to never swap anything to disk unless it actually needs to...  Though IMO it's still better to allow windows to handle the paging.. Windows is in alot better position than you are to determine what will be faster :)
motaWell, the truth is, you'll always page, no matter what you do with pagefile. You just won't page to the pagefile.
DaveWMi alwasy wondered exactly what was stored in hibernation file,  and how
DaveWMi was worried about the extra IO from it being written too
DaveWMbut like i said,  i'm trying to ease my mind on that a little,  seems silly to have an SSD if i'm gonna be paranoid about writing to it
DaveWMlol
motaEther_Man: I suspect that registry hack is quite old, and probably one of the misunderstood ones like disable_paging_executive
Qb_Masterbrb reboot
DaveWMEther_Man:  I'll keep that in mind,  but like i said,  i don't do it on every system i have
mota(actually that probably doesn't have the underscores in it)
Ether_Manmota, perhaps.. Though I found it when I was still playing WoW and windows always decided to swap out unused models from the game..  Even while the game was still in use and the model was very likely to be used very soon again...  Though yes I had a small amount of ram then but Id rather have everything else take longer so I decided to use that
DaveWMwhat does driver core paging refer to ?
motaDaveWM: end of the day it's up to you. Just keep in mind, there is a lot of apocryphal BS out there about the paging file. It is poorly understood by those who write tweak guides.
motaWindows doesn't know how likely any chunk of memory is to be used again. It knows how often it has been used in the relatively recent past
DaveWMmota:  yeah,  i get hear you guys,  and thanks for not just spouting BS opinions to convince me otherwise
DaveWMheh
motaIt pages preemptively (eg not everything written to pagefile has been 'paged out' of RAM).
DaveWMsome of you guys are good at providing evidence
DaveWMyeah,  actually the link that Ether_Man gave me a while ago has some stuff in it that makes sense
motaAlso it has no need to write things that it got straight from disk to pagefile.
DaveWMsome of my logic does apply,  but i can see some things i wasnt aware of
g0pherMeccalicious: url u having trouble ?
DaveWMi didnt think superfetch and paging had anything to do with eachother
Ether_ManThey have very much to do with eachother :)  The more you can swap out from ram, the more is available for use by superfetch :)
Ether_ManTo put it simply atleast.. It's a bit more complicated than that but
DaveWMwell,  my point would have been that I have plenty of available physical ram to work with
DaveWMheh
Ether_ManFree ram is wasted ram though :)
motauh, superfetch is primarily a new paqging algorithm. You are talking about one thing as if it is two things
DaveWMEther_Man:  well,  i'm using more of it with paging disabled i suppose
DaveWMso i'm wasting less
motaDaveWM: you cannot disable paging. You can only disable pagefile. There is a difference.
Ether_Manmota, when people talk of superfetch, people refer to the part of superfetch that is the caching part and not the paging part even though they are more interconnected than that
motaEther_Man: I won't use definitions from people who 'talk about paging' and do not understand it.
Ether_ManHence why I said that it is abit more complicated than simply saying the more you have free the more is available for use.
DaveWMi may try to enable paging on my ssd for a while see how it works out
motasuperfetch is just a set of extensions to the paging algorithm.
Ether_MandaveWM, XP or 7?
DaveWMwin7
Ether_ManThen it's even SSD aware and will use appropriate settings by default for SSD use :)
DaveWMyeah
Qb_Masterkback
mota(and really, paging *is* caching)
DaveWMmota:  i guess that would be a better term wouldnt it
blacktrhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uol0oj-TtM&feature=related
blacktrHAHAHAH
blacktromg the look on titos face
motaLet me get you one other link, which deliberately presents things backwards to help in understanding the concepts
blacktrwops
blacktrwrong chan
motahttp://blogs.msdn.com/ericlippert/archive/2009/06/08/out-of-memory-does-not-refer-to-physical-memory.aspx
motaLippert basically describes RAM as a fast cache because disks are slow.
motaAnd there is some sense to this mental model.
Xenofonbasically, for RAM all you need to think about is "do I have enough for the apps I run" and "do I have an OS that takes advantage of it"
Xenofonthe rest of the stuff about how much ought to be paged and how much superfetch and stuff like that is nonsense
Xenofonwindows 7 already has smart mechanisms for knowing that
motaThat you find it personally nonsensical, doesn't make it nonsense. It is interesting stuff, for some folks.
Xenofonnonsense from the perspective of trying to optimize your memory usage beyond what windows already does
blacktranybody here actually use a thumb stick for more ram ?
blacktrusing that new doo hickey for win7
Xenofonobviously not nonsense from a design perspective, someone had to figure it out in the first place
DaveWMEther_Man:  that guy from that one page said he got some of his info from this page,  its got some pretty technical details on it http://blogs.technet.com/b/markrussinovich/archive/2008/11/17/3155406.aspx
blacktrtechnet owns
motaBut your basic advice is right - let the OS handle it unless you have *good* reasons to do otherwise, and those reasons are supported by authortative facts (by which I mean, the advice on page 3 of a thread in some kiddy tweaking forum, does not count).
blacktranybody here use sysinternals suite ?
Xenofonrussinovich owns
Xenofonhe writes very well
DaveWMpretty interesting,  i'm gonna have to read up a little more on it all later,  thanks mota good link
blacktrye he owns
blacktrthe technet guys are awesome
blacktrhttp://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/default.aspx
blacktri use aton of the sysinternals tools
g0pherblacktr: u mean ReadyBoost ?
blacktryes ready boot
blacktrboost *
blacktris it good ?
DaveWMEther_Man , mota ,  i guess what i'd like to see is some benchmarks in different scenarios with and without paging -  i'll probably dig some up later
g0pherdon't know - wanted to get a 16GB SDHC to try it - says it will allocate 3x ram size for it
motaRight, Mark Russinovich is now an MS Fellow (which means they pay him to do whatever the hell he wants, because they know it's good for the OS). They bought his company - for years he would regularly go to the MS campus and teach Windows devs how Windows works!
DaveWMlol
blacktrye he works for the man now
amigojapansteve ballmer is great, I love how he gets super hyper
g0phergood explain here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReadyBoost
motaReadyBoost has little to do with paging
motait's a different sort of cache altogether
blacktrhttp://www.microsoft.com/emea/spotlight/sessionh.aspx?videoid=359
blacktrAdvanced Malware Cleaning
blacktrwith mark
blacktramazing stuff
blacktrusing the sysinterals suite
blacktrautoruns and process explorer
DaveWMcool
blacktri thought i was good at malware cleaning but this shows you some amazing tricks
motaRight, good video. That's the other thing that amazes me about the guy. Given the depth and specificity of his knowledge, it's kinda awesome that as a presenter he's such a regular guy.
DaveWMi used to take care of malware cleaning manually sometimes back on xp,  but seems like in more recent years i just let malware removal tools handle it for me
g0pherisnt win defender and avg enough ?
blacktroh no
blacktrabsolutely not
DaveWMbut still good stuff to know,  i know some things out there are stubborn
blacktrwatch this video
blacktrand you will be blown away
blacktri was
blacktrits advanced malware cleaning its not using anti virus software or any automated tools
blacktrits manual
blacktrwhich is a must if you are going after malware that is very sophisticated
cellofellowanyone here know a thing or two about internet explorer? I have a page that uses @font-face, and it shows the custom font for a second or two, then it switches to what looks like Arial.
g0pherand win update downloads win ?? once a month to check for bad
cellofellowhttp://pcninjas.co.cc/ if you want to take a look.
DaveWMblacktr:  i was thinking this guy was gonna have a strong accent and not be a very good speaker,  but he's not too bad
DaveWMheh
DaveWMi guess the name sounded like somebodys name with a strong accent
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