| DaveWM | jrgill: what's wrong with actually using aero ? |
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| DaveWM | nice |
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| DaveWM | i never worked with audio or video in anything programming related tbh |
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| Qb_Master | zbattle.net was cool, it's a simple program that organizes connections so people can play super nintendo games together using zsnes |
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| jrgill | DaveWM: i dont care for the transparency. its not a matter of performance but just that i like my programs maximized and the clear bars bother me |
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| DaveWM | cool |
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| DaveWM | jrgill: you know you can disable transparency |
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| jrgill | yeah, thats what ive been playing with. idk |
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| Ether_Man | Qb_Master, they also have legal problems with trademark infringment.. They should really have chosen another name |
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| DaveWM | jrgill: classic is more or less having themes disabled, so if you're expecting anything pretty out of it, you'll be disappointed |
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| jrgill | DaveWM: that's what i like but with aero peek, etc |
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| Qb_Master | lol |
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| DaveWM | jrgill: you can have your cake, and i'll eat it too |
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| jrgill | -.- |
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| DaveWM | jrgill: just go to advanced system setting and appearance, with aero turned on, uncheck anything in the boxes there you're not interested in |
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| jrgill | yeah, i think the shadows bother me. lets see here |
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| DaveWM | i used to like things really plain too, especially when i was working on an old crappy ass computer, but now all my stuff supports win7 just fine, and the glassy sexy visuals have grown on me |
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| DaveWM | i even made a little transparency addon for mirc, got this thing that makes cmd transparent, and used glasser with firefox |
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| DaveWM | never thought i'd like the eye candy, but when the system handles it fine, it makes the whole experience more pleasant, if you're gonna be sitting there staring at it all for hours |
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| Qb_Master | hah cool :) |
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| jrgill | yeah, im not one of those stuck up i gotta run everything minimal guys. i was doing some nlite installs like tinyxp and all that but that was back when it made a difference |
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| jrgill | well aero offers desktop composition and takes the load of the cpu w/ gpu so im cool with that |
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| DaveWM | jrgill: you'll probably find like myself, that win7 is made very well in the sense that most default things dont use that much of the resources |
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| DaveWM | so it doesnt tweak as well as XP |
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| jrgill | ya |
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| DaveWM | i used to tweak the crap out of XP, i just have a small list of things i do with win7 |
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| jrgill | yeah, i used to go nuts w/ changing stuff on xp :P i have xp sp3 on my netbook here. brings back memories |
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| jrgill | but i think im over the whole tweaking the hell out of it stage |
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| jrgill | i set things up nice and then i get sick of it, so im trying to set something up long term here |
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| DaveWM | yeah, well you could double or tripple your available resources by tweaking xp, on win7 you can tweak it to hell and back and maybe get a 10% difference, and have less to show for it |
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| DaveWM | i just disable paging, security center, indexing, hibernation, and a few other services, remote stuff, backup |
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| jrgill | yeah, disabling aero is like 100MB ram saved... wow |
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| DaveWM | any automatic maintenance i can disable i do, i like to be proactive about that sort of thing |
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| jrgill | indexing can be a bitch, yeah |
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| Ether_Man | DaveWM, you do realize that disabling paging is actually a bad thing I hope? |
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| DaveWM | i don't know too many people that search the contents of their drive for a file |
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| DaveWM | most people know about where stuff is at |
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| DaveWM | Ether_Man: i don't see why if i have enough physical memory |
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| Ether_Man | You have more ram than you have drivespace? Wow... Cant imagine what that must have cost.. What kindof mainboard do you have to handle that? |
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| DaveWM | Ether_Man: where did i say that ? |
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| FishFace | I disable it on my PC's I touch fwiw |
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| DaveWM | and who uses 1tb of memory ? |
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| Ether_Man | You just said you have enough physical... The only point at which disabling paging by having enough physical memory is by having more memory than storage.. |
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| DaveWM | Ether_Man: that's out of your mouth |
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| DaveWM | i sure hate that i've been using so many broken pc's for years then... |
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| DaveWM | without any issues |
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| Ether_Man | I didnt say it was broken... I said it was a bad thing... Best case scenario is lower performance... Worst case is dataloss because of it |
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| DaveWM | Ether_Man: how would it cause worse performance, if its using physical ram, over a portion of your hard disk as memory ? |
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| Action: jrgill leaves the scene |
| DaveWM | my desktop has ddr3 1600 currently, i don't think my OCZ Vertex SSD can even compete with that |
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| Ether_Man | Because it doesnt stop paging... But you will start paging all over the drive instead which increases load times due to it having to move the drive header longer |
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|
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| Ether_Man | Also, by disabling paging, you effectively make superfetch useless, which again, lowers performance |
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| DaveWM | superfetch still seems to work the same in every scenario i've tested it |
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| DaveWM | although that's disabled on my desktop as well |
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| Ether_Man | You cant use superfetch if you disable the pagefile because you wont have any ram free to superfetch in |
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| g0pher | since NT4 - MS has recommended pagefile be 1.5X size of ram. |
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| Ether_Man | DaveWM, http://lifehacker.com/5426041/understanding-the-windows-pagefile-and-why-you-shouldnt-disable-it |
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| heftig | disabling superfetch is bad |
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| g0pher | even though 2GB out of 4GB ram free - the pagefile is using 140MB |
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| Ether_Man | That's bad too aye but atleast better than disabling the pagefile... Atleast disabling superfetch wont make you lose data |
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| DaveWM | good read Ether_Man , i suppose i've been going more by feel for my personal needs, and i have yet to have any issues or notice any performance loss on the systems that i've disabled paging on |
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| Ether_Man | If you ALWAYS disable it, you dont really have much of a referencepoint now do you? :) |
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| DaveWM | mind you, the two systems i have it disabled on atm both have solid state drives, and plenty of ram, so i've disabled it, along with superfetch, and indexing |
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| mota | why? |
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| DaveWM | i didnt say i ALWAYS disable it |
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| mota | what do you hope to *gain* from disabling it? |
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| DaveWM | mota: well on those systems, i just wanted to reduce the IO to the disks |
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| mota | ah, your feeling was, SSDS wear out, so move pagefile elsewhere? |
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| Ether_Man | DaveWM, might I suggest actually just turning down your "swappiness"? |
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| DaveWM | i find off my ocz vertex, applications start just as snappy without superfetch as they do on systems with an hdd and superfetch |
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| mota | (or remove it) |
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| Meccalicious | can i get an help |
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| DaveWM | Ether_Man: lol |
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| Meccalicious | i have a site which failed while i'm trying connecting to |
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| Meccalicious | can you tell me if it works to you |
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| mota | Microsoft feel actually that pagefile is one of the *best* things to have on an SSD |
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| DaveWM | Ether_Man: you've made some valid points Ether_Man, i'll keep them in mind from now on |
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| DaveWM | mota: i can see the benefit, but i was working off the initial paranoia that people had about writing to an ssd too much |
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| DaveWM | although i'm slowly growing away from that |
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| mota | For the last word on pagefiles (short of buying a $50 copy of Windows Internals), this is a fascinating read: http://blogs.technet.com/b/markrussinovich/archive/2008/11/17/3155406.aspx |
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| DaveWM | mota: also, like for instance, i have 8gb of ram on my newer desktop, so the pagefile managed by windows tends to be huge |
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| DaveWM | and my ssd is only 60gb |
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| DaveWM | so disabling paging on it and hibernation, clears up a huge chunk of space for me |
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| mota | Vista forward, the aut-managed pagefile minimum is RAM + 300GB or 1GB, whichever is larger |
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| mota | MS's POV on pagefile and SSD: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/e7/archive/2009/05/05/support-and-q-a-for-solid-state-drives-and.aspx |
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| DaveWM | well, as i said, i can understand the benefit there, if i was paging, it does seem like a better option to page off of a faster device |
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| mota | hibernation and pagefile - I'm actually starting to wonder why MS don't combine these |
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| DaveWM | especially with the initialization being like nothing on an ssd |
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| DaveWM | i dunno |
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| Ether_Man | hmm.. Cant find it now but there is actually a regkey that tells windows to never swap anything to disk unless it actually needs to... Though IMO it's still better to allow windows to handle the paging.. Windows is in alot better position than you are to determine what will be faster :) |
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| mota | Well, the truth is, you'll always page, no matter what you do with pagefile. You just won't page to the pagefile. |
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| DaveWM | i alwasy wondered exactly what was stored in hibernation file, and how |
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| DaveWM | i was worried about the extra IO from it being written too |
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| DaveWM | but like i said, i'm trying to ease my mind on that a little, seems silly to have an SSD if i'm gonna be paranoid about writing to it |
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| DaveWM | lol |
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| mota | Ether_Man: I suspect that registry hack is quite old, and probably one of the misunderstood ones like disable_paging_executive |
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| Qb_Master | brb reboot |
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| DaveWM | Ether_Man: I'll keep that in mind, but like i said, i don't do it on every system i have |
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| mota | (actually that probably doesn't have the underscores in it) |
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| Ether_Man | mota, perhaps.. Though I found it when I was still playing WoW and windows always decided to swap out unused models from the game.. Even while the game was still in use and the model was very likely to be used very soon again... Though yes I had a small amount of ram then but Id rather have everything else take longer so I decided to use that |
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| DaveWM | what does driver core paging refer to ? |
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| mota | DaveWM: end of the day it's up to you. Just keep in mind, there is a lot of apocryphal BS out there about the paging file. It is poorly understood by those who write tweak guides. |
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| mota | Windows doesn't know how likely any chunk of memory is to be used again. It knows how often it has been used in the relatively recent past |
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| DaveWM | mota: yeah, i get hear you guys, and thanks for not just spouting BS opinions to convince me otherwise |
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| DaveWM | heh |
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| mota | It pages preemptively (eg not everything written to pagefile has been 'paged out' of RAM). |
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| DaveWM | some of you guys are good at providing evidence |
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| DaveWM | yeah, actually the link that Ether_Man gave me a while ago has some stuff in it that makes sense |
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| mota | Also it has no need to write things that it got straight from disk to pagefile. |
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| DaveWM | some of my logic does apply, but i can see some things i wasnt aware of |
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| g0pher | Meccalicious: url u having trouble ? |
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| DaveWM | i didnt think superfetch and paging had anything to do with eachother |
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| Ether_Man | They have very much to do with eachother :) The more you can swap out from ram, the more is available for use by superfetch :) |
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| Ether_Man | To put it simply atleast.. It's a bit more complicated than that but |
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| DaveWM | well, my point would have been that I have plenty of available physical ram to work with |
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| DaveWM | heh |
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| Ether_Man | Free ram is wasted ram though :) |
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| mota | uh, superfetch is primarily a new paqging algorithm. You are talking about one thing as if it is two things |
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| DaveWM | Ether_Man: well, i'm using more of it with paging disabled i suppose |
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| DaveWM | so i'm wasting less |
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| mota | DaveWM: you cannot disable paging. You can only disable pagefile. There is a difference. |
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| Ether_Man | mota, when people talk of superfetch, people refer to the part of superfetch that is the caching part and not the paging part even though they are more interconnected than that |
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| mota | Ether_Man: I won't use definitions from people who 'talk about paging' and do not understand it. |
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| Ether_Man | Hence why I said that it is abit more complicated than simply saying the more you have free the more is available for use. |
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| DaveWM | i may try to enable paging on my ssd for a while see how it works out |
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| mota | superfetch is just a set of extensions to the paging algorithm. |
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| Ether_Man | daveWM, XP or 7? |
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| DaveWM | win7 |
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| Ether_Man | Then it's even SSD aware and will use appropriate settings by default for SSD use :) |
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| DaveWM | yeah |
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| Qb_Master | kback |
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| mota | (and really, paging *is* caching) |
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| DaveWM | mota: i guess that would be a better term wouldnt it |
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| blacktr | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uol0oj-TtM&feature=related |
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| blacktr | HAHAHAH |
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| blacktr | omg the look on titos face |
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| mota | Let me get you one other link, which deliberately presents things backwards to help in understanding the concepts |
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| blacktr | wops |
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| blacktr | wrong chan |
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| mota | http://blogs.msdn.com/ericlippert/archive/2009/06/08/out-of-memory-does-not-refer-to-physical-memory.aspx |
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| mota | Lippert basically describes RAM as a fast cache because disks are slow. |
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| mota | And there is some sense to this mental model. |
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| Xenofon | basically, for RAM all you need to think about is "do I have enough for the apps I run" and "do I have an OS that takes advantage of it" |
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| Xenofon | the rest of the stuff about how much ought to be paged and how much superfetch and stuff like that is nonsense |
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| Xenofon | windows 7 already has smart mechanisms for knowing that |
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| mota | That you find it personally nonsensical, doesn't make it nonsense. It is interesting stuff, for some folks. |
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| Xenofon | nonsense from the perspective of trying to optimize your memory usage beyond what windows already does |
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| blacktr | anybody here actually use a thumb stick for more ram ? |
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| blacktr | using that new doo hickey for win7 |
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| Xenofon | obviously not nonsense from a design perspective, someone had to figure it out in the first place |
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| DaveWM | Ether_Man: that guy from that one page said he got some of his info from this page, its got some pretty technical details on it http://blogs.technet.com/b/markrussinovich/archive/2008/11/17/3155406.aspx |
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| blacktr | technet owns |
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| mota | But your basic advice is right - let the OS handle it unless you have *good* reasons to do otherwise, and those reasons are supported by authortative facts (by which I mean, the advice on page 3 of a thread in some kiddy tweaking forum, does not count). |
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| blacktr | anybody here use sysinternals suite ? |
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| Xenofon | russinovich owns |
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| Xenofon | he writes very well |
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| DaveWM | pretty interesting, i'm gonna have to read up a little more on it all later, thanks mota good link |
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| blacktr | ye he owns |
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| blacktr | the technet guys are awesome |
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| blacktr | http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/default.aspx |
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| blacktr | i use aton of the sysinternals tools |
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| g0pher | blacktr: u mean ReadyBoost ? |
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| blacktr | yes ready boot |
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| blacktr | boost * |
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| blacktr | is it good ? |
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| DaveWM | Ether_Man , mota , i guess what i'd like to see is some benchmarks in different scenarios with and without paging - i'll probably dig some up later |
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| g0pher | don't know - wanted to get a 16GB SDHC to try it - says it will allocate 3x ram size for it |
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| mota | Right, Mark Russinovich is now an MS Fellow (which means they pay him to do whatever the hell he wants, because they know it's good for the OS). They bought his company - for years he would regularly go to the MS campus and teach Windows devs how Windows works! |
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| DaveWM | lol |
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| blacktr | ye he works for the man now |
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| amigojapan | steve ballmer is great, I love how he gets super hyper |
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| g0pher | good explain here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReadyBoost |
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| mota | ReadyBoost has little to do with paging |
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| mota | it's a different sort of cache altogether |
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| blacktr | http://www.microsoft.com/emea/spotlight/sessionh.aspx?videoid=359 |
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| blacktr | Advanced Malware Cleaning |
|---|
| blacktr | with mark |
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| blacktr | amazing stuff |
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| blacktr | using the sysinterals suite |
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| blacktr | autoruns and process explorer |
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| DaveWM | cool |
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| blacktr | i thought i was good at malware cleaning but this shows you some amazing tricks |
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| mota | Right, good video. That's the other thing that amazes me about the guy. Given the depth and specificity of his knowledge, it's kinda awesome that as a presenter he's such a regular guy. |
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| DaveWM | i used to take care of malware cleaning manually sometimes back on xp, but seems like in more recent years i just let malware removal tools handle it for me |
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| g0pher | isnt win defender and avg enough ? |
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| blacktr | oh no |
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| blacktr | absolutely not |
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| DaveWM | but still good stuff to know, i know some things out there are stubborn |
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| blacktr | watch this video |
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| blacktr | and you will be blown away |
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| blacktr | i was |
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| blacktr | its advanced malware cleaning its not using anti virus software or any automated tools |
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| blacktr | its manual |
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| blacktr | which is a must if you are going after malware that is very sophisticated |
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| cellofellow | anyone here know a thing or two about internet explorer? I have a page that uses @font-face, and it shows the custom font for a second or two, then it switches to what looks like Arial. |
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| g0pher | and win update downloads win ?? once a month to check for bad |
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| cellofellow | http://pcninjas.co.cc/ if you want to take a look. |
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| DaveWM | blacktr: i was thinking this guy was gonna have a strong accent and not be a very good speaker, but he's not too bad |
|---|
| DaveWM | heh |
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| DaveWM | i guess the name sounded like somebodys name with a strong accent |
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