| shaggy-h | most of the stuff I like to work on absolutely requires primitives though |
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| jwzrd | Hmm, in what way? |
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| shaggy-h | which makes me a bit reluctant to jump in to scala... I'm sure I'll like the language |
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| shaggy-h | memory and performance |
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| jwzrd | Because... scalac does eliminate boxing fairly good |
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| jwzrd | It would be interesting to see a benchmark comparison of something mildly real from your domain |
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| shaggy-h | maybe... feel free to port http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/page/tile-splitter if you like :) |
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| shaggy-h | but workwise, performance is tricky even with java |
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| jwzrd | yes |
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| jwzrd | Well as if I know for real :) |
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| shaggy-h | in-memory compression is awkward/annoying without unsigned primitives for example |
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| jwzrd | ah, definitely |
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| shaggy-h | that's why I asked you about scala + webapps... that's a different and more suitable domain for scala imho |
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| shaggy-h | at least, until the vm can eliminate boxing altogether |
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| jwzrd | from what I've read, it can |
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| jwzrd | So long as you don't let the boxed objects escape and all that |
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| shaggy-h | only in some limited situations |
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| jwzrd | ah |
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| shaggy-h | yes, escape analysis |
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| jwzrd | yes, but not in the HotSpot sense |
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| jwzrd | Well, actually, in the same sense. But at compilation |
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| shaggy-h | but anything Collection related is going to be problematic until we get reified generics |
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| shaggy-h | same is true for java there of course |
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| shaggy-h | but at least it's possible to roll your own replacements in javaland |
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| jwzrd | Afaik there's that either already in Scala or on it's way |
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| jwzrd | With @specialized |
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| jwzrd | SPypi |
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| jwzrd | So you |
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| jxava | So you are good for the economy. |
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| jwzrd | 'FUCK |
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| jwzrd | So you'd: class Bonk[A] @specialized { val a: A = _ } |
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| jwzrd | Or somesuch |
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| shaggy-h | how tf does that work? |
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| shaggy-h | under the hood I mean |
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| shaggy-h | compiler must generate a whole new class I guess |
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| jwzrd | yes |
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| jwzrd | scalac already generates N^M special crapola under the hood |
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| shaggy-h | "The new @specialized annotation fixes this problem by causing scala to generate different versions of the user-specified generic type or method for each of the primitive types." |
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| shaggy-h | nice |
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| jwzrd | Yes |
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| jwzrd | Is that already in? 2.8? |
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| jwzrd | If you had time though it'd be really nice to see some comparisons |
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| shaggy-h | http://blog.objectmentor.com/articles/2009/06/05/bay-area-scala-enthusiasts-base-meeting-whats-new-in-scala-2-8 |
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| jwzrd | Take a look at how break is implemented :) |
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| shaggy-h | doubt I'd ever get time to port any of our nastiness, but as long as I'm aware what's happening under the hood and it's doing all the right stuff, I'd be happy |
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| shaggy-h | sounds like they're on the right path at least |
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| shaggy-h | heh, as a library method :) |
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| jwzrd | "Doug Lea wants to work with the team on concurrency data structures. The lack of closures in Java makes this effort difficult in Java." |
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| jwzrd | Yes :) |
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| jwzrd | Look in Breaks.break |
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|
|
| jwzrd | Can't recall where that bastard is |
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| shaggy-h | tf do I find that? |
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| jwzrd | scala.util.control.Breaks |
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| shaggy-h | tf do I find that? :) |
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| shaggy-h | nm, got it |
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| jwzrd | def break { throw breakException } |
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| jwzrd | =) |
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| shaggy-h | that's ok though, the breakException isn't created each time |
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| shaggy-h | so still cheap |
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| jwzrd | AHh, I see that naow |
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| jwzrd | But isn't throwing mildly expensive anyway with rummaging through stack framen? |
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| shaggy-h | nah |
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| jwzrd | nah, no |
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| shaggy-h | not free, but nowhere as bad as building the stacktrace |
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| shaggy-h | still, that's a pretty filthy hack ;) |
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| shaggy-h | I think the cost comes in not rummaging the stack frames, but rummaging to find a suitable catch clause |
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| shaggy-h | given it would always be in the current method in this case, it's not such a problem |
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| shaggy-h | but if you popped up N methods, you'd have to rummage N times |
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| jwzrd | yes yes |
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| jxava | jwzrd: but but ... ? |
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| reverend | i'd just like to say fuck jsf 1.1 |
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| shaggy-h | you're 0.1 too late |
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| jwzrd | fuck jsf. |
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| jwzrd | It's the dumbest fucking joke of an idea ever and... that's saying something |
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| _Tenchi_ | who needs jsf when you have php?? |
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| reverend | jsf is such utter shit |
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| reverend | seriously |
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| reverend | i can't believe we're doing this project in jsf |
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| reverend | i want out |
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| jwzrd | It's stupid as fuck |
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| jwzrd | And sersiously does not add anything to JSP and say jquery |
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| reverend | wrap it up in weblogic portal and you're fucking fucked like a fuck |
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| jwzrd | slang fuck |
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| jxava | fuck (1 of 20): 1. The universally recognized "F word" |
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| _Tenchi_ | are you using weblogic v8 ? |
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| reverend | fuck no, 10.2 |
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| _Tenchi_ | then why are you using ancient jsf ? |
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| reverend | because that's the only version officially supported with WLP 10.2 |
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| _Tenchi_ | dealing with a bunch of struts tars? |
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| _Tenchi_ | that's, sad |
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| reverend | they include myfaces and 1.2 RI but they are not supported within portlets |
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| jwzrd | _Tenchi_: this is how it works. If you use JSF, you don't get to take a piss at others that do |
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| jwzrd | AHhaha you use portlets too |
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| _Tenchi_ | reverend: wait, JSF 1.2 added stuff to make portlets work |
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| reverend | yes, the fail runs deeper than your mum's ass crevice |
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| shaggy-h | christ |
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| _Tenchi_ | nuttay |
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| _Tenchi_ | kind of doesnt make sense |
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| reverend | unfortunately, we had started implementing with myfaces |
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| _Tenchi_ | myfaceds is officially supported? |
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| reverend | and we were encountering... 'odd' behavior |
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| reverend | and then found this whitepaper |
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| reverend | http://download.oracle.com/technology/products/weblogic/portal/weblogic-portal-jsf-whitepaper.pdf |
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| reverend | where it says 'do not use anything but RI 1.1' and 'oh by the way, RI 1.1 isn't the default' |
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| reverend | anyway, it's way, way, way too late to do anything but try to finish eating this shit sandwich |
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| _Tenchi_ | reverend: the whitepaper has abunch of stuff about supporting 1.2 |
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| _Tenchi_ | hehe, this whitepaper has the most uses of the term "unfortunately" i've ever seen in a whitepaper haha |
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| reverend | Caution: The steps above actually create a project with an unsupported configuration, but it will |
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| reverend | suffice for this specific example. For the full procedure for configuring a JSF application in a |
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| reverend | supported configuration, consult the .Configuration. chapter. |
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| reverend | look at the chart in section 4.1 |
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| reverend | supported, with caveats |
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| _Tenchi_ | right, what are the caveats? |
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| _Tenchi_ | client-side state saving dosnt work? |
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| _Tenchi_ | should use client side state saving anyway |
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| _Tenchi_ | at least not with any jsf impls i've seen hehe |
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| reverend | the caveat is that we're using beehive pageflow |
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| _Tenchi_ | doh |
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| _Tenchi_ | apache should just be completely shutout of some things |
|---|
| reverend | it's a mess |
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| shaggy-h | "There are some caveats, but overall it offers solid support" |
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| Action: shaggy-h can't see what the problem is |
| shaggy-h | sounds solid to me |
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| shaggy-h | haha that paper's funny |
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| shaggy-h | well for me anyway, not having to deal with it :) |
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| jwzrd | How can someone ever want to use something like that? How did the thought processes go? |
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| _Tenchi_ | but yeah, jsf 1.2 + beehive is a no no |
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| _Tenchi_ | for anything |
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| reverend | jwzrd: that, in itself is also rage inducing |
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| jwzrd | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZDJPoSWFOM |
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| jwzrd | reverend: srsly |
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| reverend | the reasoning that went into this architecture |
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| reverend | i also wasn't involved at that point |
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| reverend | the customer defined the architecture and the people my employer put on the team were not smart enough to question it |
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| reverend | first i heard was 'oh, everything's fucked, we need you to lend a helping hand and get things going' |
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| _Tenchi_ | i know from lots of experience there's no way to say "trash the entire architecture" and retain any political capital |
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| reverend | indeed |
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| reverend | too late for that |
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| reverend | although we have an extensive retrospective planned |
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| reverend | in the meantime we have to belly up to the feces buffet and pile our plates high |
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| _Tenchi_ | shitty nights sleep-- |
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| --- Sat Nov 28 2009 |
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